What modes can i use on UHF CB?

[melbournefan]

Hi i am going to set a test DPMR System on UHFCB And i am wondering if it is legal.

if DPMR Is not what modes can i use on 447? DMR? P25?


Thanks.

[Comint]

Hi i am going to set a test DPMR System on UHFCB And i am wondering if it is legal.

if DPMR Is not what modes can i use on 447? DMR? P25?

Thanks.

The Class Licence states F3E or G3E only,
which means Angle Modulation ONLY,
which means Analogue ONLY.

Emission Designators F3E and G3E
F = Frequency Modulation
G = Phase Modulation
3 = Analogue
E = Telephony ie., Voice

--
Comint

[blacktown]

One amusing CB moment from the past, maybe 7-8 years ago .... the Sydney Channel 1 owner was extremely upset at hearing long sessions of encrypted P25 transmitting on the Hurstville repeater. Turns out that intermod from a Police Special Ops channel at a transmitter site only a few hundred metres away was bleeding across onto the frequency and that the CB repeater setup didnt have any filtering whatsoever. Problem was soon fixed

[melbournefan]

Thanks for that comit, is there any way to transmit digital without a vk anywhere?

[Vkfour]

Nope!

[Phantom]

Clearly by asking such, you have not read the regs.
Also, having such equipment for which you are not appropriately licensed for, is also illegal

[Vkfour]

This subject pops up with monotonous regularity, and people monotonously argue the point. It is illegal to have any radio communications device or transmitter, for the purposes of transmitting without a licence, permit or authority. A radio communications device or a transmitter is considered to be capable of transmitting if it can be made operational by the addition of an antenna, battery or power supply, microphone or any other device necessary for its operation, (Chapter 3, part 3.1, maximum penalty 2 years for an individual and 1500 penalty units otherwise). It is also worth pointing out, that this site is obviously perused by the regulatory authorities from the number of people who have received their attention after posting here.

[emergen]

To add to your post Vkfour pleading ignorance is no defence as a point of law.

[Vkfour]

Absolutely. I could have included in my epistle, that the Radio Communications Act, in many cases it spells out quite clearly that the evidentiary burden is on the defendant in accordance with the Commonwealth Criminal Code. And ignorance, as any first year laws student can tell you, can never be used as a defence, only in mitigation.

[gordo92]

The only channels that come close is 22 and 23 but that is only for digital Telemetry, not digital voice, the best idea would be to get a Narrow Commercial channel and use it

[Yipyip46]

To clarify Gordo92 comment the transmissions on channels 22 & 23 are still only allowed to be analogue transmission in accordance with the class license. what they are is 10 tone selcal or digital signals fed to a modem and modulating the carrier of the radio. There is also a time limit on how long a radio can transmit in a 1 hour period so this rules out file transfers on the CB band.
Regards
Ian

[gordo92]

Yeah you explained it a little better then me Yipyip46.
Thanks


Sent using Tapatalk from my iPhone 5c iOS 8.2

[Nunya-Biz]

Originally posted by VKFour ; This subject pops up with monotonous regularity, and people monotonously argue the point. It is illegal to have any radio communications device or transmitter, for the purposes of transmitting without a licence, permit or authority. A radio communications device or a transmitter is considered to be capable of transmitting if it can be made operational by the addition of an antenna, battery or power supply, microphone or any other device necessary for its operation, (Chapter 3, part 3.1, maximum penalty 2 years for an individual and 1500 penalty units otherwise). It is also worth pointing out, that this site is obviously perused by the regulatory authorities from the number of people who have received their attention after posting here.

- I think you need to calm yourself down a tad, Champ -

Clearly the OP is asking how to 'reach beyond' the strict limitations of 63cm, ( UHF CB ), without having to face the mundanity of an Amateur Licence Exam…

( He made this VERY clear in his second question - )


Your specific response to his second question...

Originally posted by VKFour ; Nope!

…couldn't be further from the truth if you tried!



So, to set the record straight, consider the following - as irrefutable fact ;


There's nothing stopping you grabbing any off-the-shelf, readily available, cheap, already Type-Approved ISM Gear, engaging your own choice of encryption AS HARD AS YOU LIKE - and then occupying as little or as much of the associated ISM-Band, ( that the Gear is configured for ) - against what your Range-vs-Bandwidth requirements are.

NO LICENSE IS REQUIRED FOR THIS, and once you're set up, you can achieve Point-to-Point ranges from as near as 6cm, right out to 66km - consisting of Full Duplex High-Speed Data - that you can use to carry anything you want…

For as little as AU$100.00 at each end, highly-secured, long range, license-free, Full Duplex Data - can be all yours, on any of the following ISM Bands here in Australia;

915MHz - 928MHz
2.4GHz - 2.4835GHz
5.17GHz - 5.57GHz
5.65GHz - 5.835GHz


Once you've got your end points established and happily synced, you can push whatever encrypted Full Duplex Data/Comms over the link you wish - Voice, Video, Telemetry, Telecommand, Raw Data, Private LAN, Internet - anything your heart desires…


Don't feel that just because somebody in here tells you what you want to do can't be legally done - makes this actually true.

( Also remember - Some people in here think that just because they can declare themselves as VK-Certified, that they are also 'the-be-all-and-end-all' of all things outside VK-spectrum as well…

Clearly, as just demonstrated above, this serves as a good example that this is definately NOT THE CASE… )


As I've always said - 'Poster's BEWARE - Reader's be wary!'

Me - OUT
(c;=

[peteramjet]

Originally posted by VKFour ; Nope!

…couldn't be further from the truth if you tried!

So, to set the record straight, consider the following - as irrefutable fact

The OP specified his digital modes as dPMR, DMR or P25 - none of which may be used in the ISM bands. There is no record to 'set straight', the answer provided by VKFour was correct.

[Nunya-Biz]

Originally posted by peteramjet ; The OP specified his digital modes as dPMR, DMR or P25 - none of which may be used in the ISM bands. There is no record to 'set straight', the answer provided by VKFour was correct.

Well, actually - the OP clearly stated that his only mode was in fact, strictly limited to dPMR - so nice try, Wise Guy...

( He also stated that he wanted to know if any other Modes other than dPMR were OK to use on '447'… )

Now this is an obvious mistype.


What specifically did the OP actually mean by this - '477' or '446'?

Given that dPMR446 in Europe, ( where the outright dPMR specification actually comes from ), is in fact found on a small selection of Channels actually located on 446MHz - and not 477MHz for UHF CB found here in Australia - opens up the possibility that his dPMR Gear, unmodified out of the box, could in fact be firmware-locked some 30MHz lower in Frequency, than what the UHF CB Frequencies we have over here - are to begin with…

The fact that all three of the Super-Heroes - ( when putting their twenty-cents on the table, along with yourself ) - didn't ask to clarify this blazingly obvious issue, is proof-positive as to what I'm ultimately asserting ;

- Just because you can claim that you're VK-Certified, doesn't then mean that everything you say has merit -


While I'm at it, if you don't know how to legally put P25, DMR or dPMR - upon any ISM Band - Then maybe you should, ( if you have one ), hand your VK-Ticket in for good measure.


Finally, there's also absolutely nothing stopping the OP from pushing any form of Digital Voice Modulation across any Channel found on UHF CB - so long as he meets the following strict guidelines ;

- He limits the model of UHF CB he wishes to use, only to equipment certified under AS/NZS 4365:2011,
- He doesn't modify this equipment in any way,
- All emissions are also strictly bound to be either F3E or G3E in type, ( either FM or PM ), and also comply with the associated maximum bandwidth allowances,
- And any 'encrypted transmissions' are not heard on any Repeater, on the Call Channel, on any of the Data/Telemetry Channels, on Channels 61, 62, or 63, or on any Emergency Frequency.

Apart from that, there's utterly nothing in the current Regulations that specifically prevents ANYBODY from firing out ANY form of Digital Voice Emission - as this constitutes yet another form of perfectly legal encryption - no different in nature as to what can also be seen in Type Approved UHF CB's, such as the GME TX655…

Who's to say a custom-compiled, external Audio-chain coupled, Digital Voice Mode is in fact - illegal?

Read the Reg's Muppet - I just dare you to…


'Nuff said -

Me - OUT
(c;=

[railscan]

And stay out...

R

[Phantom]

Interesting first few posts from a new member - especially bringing up a reasonably old topic

Now now, remember to all play nice

[peteramjet]

Originally posted by peteramjet ; The OP specified his digital modes as dPMR, DMR or P25 - none of which may be used in the ISM bands. There is no record to 'set straight', the answer provided by VKFour was correct.

Well, actually - the OP clearly stated that his only mode was in fact, strictly limited to dPMR - so nice try, Wise Guy...

- Just because you can claim that you're VK-Certified, doesn't then mean that everything you say has merit -

I think you should re-read the OP's post. Despite the obvious typo his query related to more than dPMR.

And I don't know where I've claimed I'm 'VK Certified', or that I've ever made any claim what I say has merit - the latter is soley your domain.

To assist the OP (considering that is what this discussion forum is about - assisting others), maybe you could advise him/her of the ways to legally use the modes specified in the ISM bands in Australia without a licence?

[Vkfour]

Dear Mr Nunya-Biz,

My my my, we do have in for some people, don’t we? And we have some pretty strong opinions too. Lets go through a few of you comments and analyse them ...

Let us start with this one ...

“Also remember - Some people in here think that just because they can declare themselves as VK-Certified, that they are also 'the-be-all-and-end-all' of all things outside VK-spectrum as well…”

Hmm, don’t like amateurs, hey? Well, I am an amateur and I totally agree with you, just because you’re an amateur, you are not the be all and end all, but before you go calling people, Wise Guy, Super Hero and Champ, many of the comments made here are correct, whether they are made by amateurs or not, and whether you agree or not.

Yes, I am an amateur and my licence goes back to when we were examined on rules and regulations outside the amateur bands, hell, I even have a CW accreditation, but I am also a lawyer, and until recent early retirement, a practising barrister, a Senior Counsel in fact, and I have practised in the Federal Courts. I have read the Radio Communications Act, I have read the Commonwealth Criminal Code and I have read the licence conditions of several services, the CBRS being one of them.

Here’s another ...

“Finally, there's also absolutely nothing stopping the OP from pushing any form of Digital Voice Modulation across any Channel found on UHF CB - so long as he meets the following strict guidelines ;

- He limits the model of UHF CB he wishes to use, only to equipment certified under AS/NZS 4365:2011,
- He doesn't modify this equipment in any way,
- All emissions are also strictly bound to be either F3E or G3E in type, ( either FM or PM ), and also comply with the associated maximum bandwidth allowances,
- And any 'encrypted transmissions' are not heard on any Repeater, on the Call Channel, on any of the Data/Telemetry Channels, on Channels 61, 62, or 63, or on any Emergency Frequency. (Continue reading further down for a specific comment on this comment).

Apart from that, there's utterly nothing in the current Regulations that specifically prevents ANYBODY from firing out ANY form of Digital Voice Emission - as this constitutes yet another form of perfectly legal encryption - no different in nature as to what can also be seen in Type Approved UHF CB's, such as the GME TX655…

Who's to say a custom-compiled, external Audio-chain coupled, Digital Voice Mode is in fact - illegal?”.

Good question and very simply answered and I quote myself from the Radiocommunications (Citizen Band Radio Stations) Class Licence 2015.

Conditions — general
A person must not:
(c) use with a transmitter device that encrypts speech transmission in transmitting:

Operating a CB station to transmit audio tones
A person, when operating a CB station to transmit audio tones for initiating communications with another CB station, must:
(a) on a carrier frequency mentioned in item 1, 2 or 3 of Schedule 1, only transmit audible tones for less than 3 seconds in any period of 60 seconds; or
(b) on a carrier frequency mentioned in item 4, 5, 7 or 8 of Schedule 1, only transmit:
(i) audible tones for less than 3 seconds in any period of 60 seconds; or
(ii) subaudible tones.
Note Subaudible tones are used in continuous tone coded squelch systems (CTCSS).

And that is why it is illegal to do so, but before I move on, the GME TX655, and similar UHF CB radios uses audio frequency inversion scrambling. It is legal, it is not digital and not encrypted and can be heard by anyone with similar equipment.


Here’s another one ..

“What specifically did the OP actually mean by this - '477' or '446'?

Given that dPMR446 in Europe, ( where the outright dPMR specification actually comes from ), is in fact found on a small selection of Channels actually located on 446MHz - and not 477MHz for UHF CB found here in Australia - opens up the possibility that his dPMR Gear, unmodified out of the box, could in fact be firmware-locked some 30MHz lower in Frequency, than what the UHF CB Frequencies we have over here - are to begin with…
The fact that all three of the Super-Heroes - ( when putting their twenty-cents on the table, along with yourself ) - didn't ask to clarify this blazingly obvious issue, is proof-positive as to what I'm ultimately asserting ;”

Just what are you ultimately asserting? I am aware that radios, out of the box, can be programmed to do things that they shouldn't do in Australia, but the radio still has to be type approved, and it still has to be licensed and used within license conditions, and if his equipment is so equipped, then to unlock it would render it non type approved, and thus, illegal. Clearly the original question is to do with UHF CB because he actually asks about UHF CB. True, he did mention 447, but not in relation to dPMR446, so it is apparent that he was referring to a frequency, and 447 MHz is in the 70 cm amateur band.

Moving right along ...

"So, to set the record straight, consider the following - as irrefutable fact ;

There's nothing stopping you grabbing any off-the-shelf, readily available, cheap, already Type-Approved ISM Gear, engaging your own choice of encryption AS HARD AS YOU LIKE - and then occupying as little or as much of the associated ISM-Band, ( that the Gear is configured for ) - against what your Range-vs-Bandwidth requirements are.

NO LICENSE IS REQUIRED FOR THIS, and once you're set up, you can achieve Point-to-Point ranges from as near as 6cm, right out to 66km - consisting of Full Duplex High-Speed Data - that you can use to carry anything you want…

For as little as AU$100.00 at each end, highly-secured, long range, license-free, Full Duplex Data - can be all yours, on any of the following ISM Bands here in Australia;

915MHz - 928MHz
2.4GHz - 2.4835GHz
5.17GHz - 5.57GHz
5.65GHz - 5.835GHz


Once you've got your end points established and happily synced, you can push whatever encrypted Full Duplex Data/Comms over the link you wish - Voice, Video, Telemetry, Telecommand, Raw Data, Private LAN, Internet - anything your heart desires…

What is an irrefutable fact is that these frequencies, or indeed any other radio frequencies in Australia are not license free. To be sure, there are many services where an individual licence is not required, but that doesn’t mean the frequencies are open slather. They are, in fact subject, to class licenses, where an individual doesn’t need a specific license, but it still required to comply with the regulations, and that includes if they are authorised to access such a service, and the question and the modes mentioned, I’m afraid, don’t satisfy that requirement. (Amateurs do have some access to these bands on a secondary basis and thus the class licence comment doesn’t apply to them).

Getting a bit picky now ...

Well, actually - the OP clearly stated that his only mode was in fact, strictly limited to dPMR - so nice try, Wise Guy...

Sorry, but the original question asked was that if he could not use dPMR, how about other modes?

And again ...

Read the Reg's Muppet - I just dare you to…

I have read the regulations, many times including three times for court. This does not include professional opinions I have written for clients, and I've even quoted some of them here.

Oh, and to quote you yet again, this is where I directed readers from a previous quote. ...

“- And any 'encrypted transmissions' are not heard on any Repeater, on the Call Channel, on any of the Data/Telemetry Channels, on Channels 61, 62, or 63, or on any Emergency Frequency.”

I read the reg’s looking for this condition and this doesn’t appear anywhere, there is no mention of encrypted transmissions, not in any official ACMA documentation at least. Your comments concerning Channel Nos, 61, 62 , and 63 are irrelevant in any case because, quoting from the current Radiocommunications (Citizen Band Radio Stations) Class Licence 2015.

Note Channels 61, 62 and 63 are reserved for future allocation and transmission on these channels is not permitted under this Class Licence.

Those channels are not supposed to be used, FOR ANYTHING, not even dropping a carrier.

When reading and Act of Parliament, or regulations, it is important to read the whole document, including the preamble. The preamble is where the whole purpose of the Act is spelt out, usually, but not always, in very simple language. You can not just flick through a document to find something that suits you, well, you can, provided you are familiar with the rest of the document, and even then it is necessary to check before making a final decision.

The Radio Communications Act is a very complex Act and has to deal with an extraordinary range of legislation over an extraordinary range of activity. Consequently, a number of things should be noted. The Act does appear, at times, to contradict its self, but generally where this occurs, it is because of a misreading of previous content, or is a general condition and tells the reader to refer to the conditions of the individual licence conditions. Another thing that should be noted is that no specific class of licence is referred to in the Act. It is worth pointing out though, that whereas the Act can be a bit non specific in many cases, when it says that something is specifically excluded, it is specifically excluded and can be prosecuted under the Act, and even the Criminal Code, and as a recent case shows, the regulatory authorities can choose which law provides the greater penalty, and go with that one.

In any legal debate, there are always two sides. Sometimes, both sides agree, “you’re right and we’re wrong”. Sometimes, it can be, “you’re right and we’re wrong, BUT”. Other times we have to leave it for the judge to decide. I am not the judge in this case, but this is my considered, (simplified without the legalese), opinion, and you can accept it, or reject it, not my problem, but it could be yours.

[Phantom]

Oh my, that is beautiful to read!