CB Channel Transmitting on Commercial Radio -What can Happen

[OIC_Napster]

So y have u posted this....? Did u get done?

[chanjyj]

I feel they are being dogmatic about it. I mean, aren't CB radios are built to commercial specs? I would understand if they say don't use amateur (HAM) radios or commercial radios that don't conform to emission standards but a Simoco SRM 9030?

[chanjyj]

Eh wait. I just noticed something. Let me go read up on what "UHF CB Standard 4365 2011" is first.

[Vkfour]

Type approval is not a general thing applying to every piece of equipment. Different services are subject to different standards. CB sets are not to exceed 5 watt output and are not to be designed in such a way as to allow the frequencies to be reprogrammed.

[Newy1234]

Yes CB's are maximum 5 Watt, though with the icom 400pro, it is also a commercial radio.
It can transmit on 25 Watts also, after programming with cable & program.

This i feel is a contradiction to the srm9030+ where it is a commercial radio, though it is possible transmit on CB channels.

There is no difference in the radio's on the basic level, though one you can use CB channels and the other, not.

Again I say "BS" to the lot where it comes to regulations.

I will have to agree, the ACMA allowing the IC400pro to be sold as a CB radio does seems to contradict the ACMA's own rules!

[klorent]

Then you can think of the GME TX3800 also.
Also a commercial radio there legaly does CB.

[chanjyj]

Well in the end I suppose what they want is for the device to be "dealer programmed" and limited to 5W. You know reality may well be different but I suppose they have to define something down on paper.

Much better I think would be to define 2 classes of transceiver:

Amateur Transceiver: Anything goes really, as long as no interference
Commercial Transceiver: XX deviation and XX modulation and XX this and XX that.

Then further define the use of the transceiver and limit it by X output for certain classes, with CB as a class.

[miketrike]

Why is every single QFRS vehicle with the SRM9000 programmed with UHF CB then?

[Vkfour]

QFRS is authorised to do this in order that they can communicate with others outside their service.

[alinco21]

QAS also have UHF CB 40 channel in their units as well, soon to move to UHF 80 Ch, appartently.

[chanjyj]

I shall refrain from posting further here. I detest hypocrisy.

[Vkfour]

what hypocracy? These services are authorised to have this equipment in order to communicate with people with UHF CB's under various circumstances. The QPS also use UHF CB to communicate with people outside of the normal network. They are authorised to do so, AND they pay a fee. If you want to use more than 5 watts, do what I, and others do, pay the fee!

[mubear]

QFRS radios are limited to 5 watts on the CB channels.

[vkcpolice]

i think its a stupid rule tbh. if you have a commercial radio and are transmitting on the citizen band it should be allowed as long as your not exceeding the 5 watts transmit power. i think its a way for company's to make more money so you have to go out and buy a proper cb radio. a 5 watt 80ch uniden radio costs around $300+ ive seen Chinese ham radios for $60 on ebay that cover the cb band yet there illegal to own without or in some cases even with a ham radio license

[chanjyj]

what hypocracy? These services are authorised to have this equipment in order to communicate with people with UHF CB's under various circumstances. The QPS also use UHF CB to communicate with people outside of the normal network. They are authorised to do so, AND they pay a fee. If you want to use more than 5 watts, do what I, and others do, pay the fee!

It has nothing to do with the 5 watts. The fact is they are allowed to program UHF CB frequencies into commercial radios freely, contravening (from what I know) current legislation. However ACMA goes to asinine depths to target a user, reading his website and then sending him a warning letter about doing the same.

From my POV it is hypocrisy. As long as the Simoco was set to 5W or less, this should not be an issue.

The kind of catch 22 legislation his also affecting Hams. I quote from the WIA President's blog (http://www.wia.org.au/joinwia/wia/presidentsblog/):

It’s little wonder that back home in Australia the ACMA is taking more than a passing interest in “open” hand-held transceivers imported from China. Recently ACMA inspectors have been inspecting amateur stations, and in some cases confiscating equipment or issuing Warning Notices under Section 47 advising that possession of equipment (Commercial Non Standard Devices) was not authorised by the station licence.

In a letter to one of the affected radio amateurs, the ACMA states:
“Amateur Radios are designed and limited to cover internationally recognised amateur radio bands only. Equipment manufacturers such as Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood have been producing Amateur Radios for over 50 years on these bands. Amateur radio equipment operating within Amateur radio bands does not have to meet Australian equipment standards.

“However, if a radio communications device covers commercial frequencies, or has been modified to cover commercial frequencies outside of internationally recognised amateur bands, then it must meet the standards for equipment operating in those bands, as well as carry the appropriate regulatory compliance marking (RCM), such as a C-Tick. Associated power supplies and plug packs must also be tested to Australian standards and carry a C Tick or RCM”.

The possession and operation of old/ex-military equipment provided it use is within the Licence Conditions Determination (the LCD) is not at issue here as there is no Australian Standard in place for military equipment.

However, in practical terms there does not seem to be much difference between an amateur possessing a hand-held radio capable of transmitting from 400 – 480 MHz and say a Collins ART13 general coverage HF transmitter. Both are capable of wreaking havoc on other radio communications services, but only if the operator chooses to ignore the LCD and break the law, for which there are strict penalties.

To make matters even more complicated, as there is no Standard for amateur equipment in Australia, amateur licensees (except for Foundation licensees) are permitted to modify ex-commercial equipment for use on amateur spectrum, therefore rendering the device as non-standard. However, because the transceiver is then made non-standard, but still capable of transmitting outside amateur bands, it is illegal to possess it. Catch 22.

IMO ACMA needs to clear up some of these gray areas.

[Vkfour]

The ACMA have authorised the emergency services to have UHF CB frequencies programmed into their radios to allow them to communicate outside their own network. This is not hypocracy, it is AUTHORISED for practical reasons. If you are able to listen to the police outside of Brisneyland, you will often hear them using UHF CB to communicate with truckies, road users, community groups and others in conjunction with their work.

In relation to the oather subject, (by the way, did you credit the WIA?), if you peruse this thread, and others, you will see that this has been spoken of quite frequently and the fact that these radios were illegal has been ridiculed. They realy are awful unlawful to have.

However, the situation with amateurs is somewhat different because no amateur equipment is type approved and they are allowed to have any radio they like, provided they don't use them on frequencies they are unlikely to use.

I personally have a number of these radios and they all have frequencies outside 2 mx and 70 cmx programed into them, but NO transmit frequencies outside amateur. I am wondering of those that were seized had CB transmit frequencies programed in.

[chanjyj]

The ACMA have authorised the emergency services to have UHF CB frequencies programmed into their radios to allow them to communicate outside their own network. This is not hypocracy, it is AUTHORISED for practical reasons. If you are able to listen to the police outside of Brisneyland, you will often hear them using UHF CB to communicate with truckies, road users, community groups and others in conjunction with their work.

In relation to the oather subject, (by the way, did you credit the WIA?), if you peruse this thread, and others, you will see that this has been spoken of quite frequently and the fact that these radios were illegal has been ridiculed. They realy are awful unlawful to have.

However, the situation with amateurs is somewhat different because no amateur equipment is type approved and they are allowed to have any radio they like, provided they don't use them on frequencies they are unlikely to use.

I personally have a number of these radios and they all have frequencies outside 2 mx and 70 cmx programed into them, but NO transmit frequencies outside amateur. I am wondering of those that were seized had CB transmit frequencies programed in.

Vkfour, how did I not credit the WIA? I specifically put a hyperlink in back to the original website post.

ACMA authorises the emergency services to program CB frequencies into their radios, fine. I have no problems with that. I once worked with in Law Enforcement (not in Australia) and I understand their position just fine. What I call hypocrisy is this - (from what I see) they turn a blind eye on CB users TX-ing on more than 5W of power, but come chasing down a guy who has programmed CB frequencies into a commercial radio (I am assuming he set output to 5W max), for the simple reason it was not a "CB type radio".

Comeon, a Simoco radio is certainly CB spec by virtue of it being commercial spec. I'm not using an amateur radio to TX on CB frequencies. You want to hunt down people? Hunt down those that are pushing more than 5W out of their radios. Hunt down pirates. Hunt down the plethora of rule-breakers that actually cause disruption, not because you want to follow the law to the letter - I believe intent should be the guiding principle. Prioritise who you want to hunt down first, not go for the easiest (?) target for the sake of it.

Sorry for the rant.

[Vkfour]

Mr Chanjyj, I do apologise as I missed the hyper link in your comment. I have a Yaesu radio which came from the official Australian supplier and it covers well outside the amateur bands, straight out of the box. Modifications will yield even more frequencies. I also have a Chinese radio that is locked to transmit only in the amateur bands and no one seems to know how to unlock it. This contradicts the WIA, but that's not a difficult thing to do. Yes, there are two other Chinese jobs which aren't locked, they do have non amateur frequencies programed in, but receive only, transmit locked.

Okay, In addition to having formal legal qualifications, no longer practicing, and being a lay magistrate, I am also an enthusiastic radio user having received my first SW radio when I was 5 years old, nearly 50 years ago. I have also had a ham licence since 1979. Since then, we have had a couple of years of daylight saving, global warming, age related time acceleration and a couple of re-runs of Doctor Who, so I am not exactly sure how long ago that was, or when it will be!

It is wrong to assume that people who modify commercial radios to CB frequencies cut the power back to 5 watts, they don't, or most don't anyway. And many don't have the ability to optimise the radio to CB frequencies. As you appreciate, this can cause problems.

We had a group up this way, just south of Gympie, who used to meet, on air, and discuss how to get more than 25 watts out of their radios, where to get 100 and 150 watt amplifiers and how to program in the “in between frequencies”, and they used them too. This was before the current 80 channel allocation, and this is well outside the remit of the CB service, hence my previous comment about getting an appropriate licence.

The regulatory authorities once did hunt ne’er-do-wells down, and with a great deal of enthusiasm I might add. Now, because the rules are much more liberal and many, many more radios and services in use, and because the regulatory authorities have been emasculated to a large degree, they are extremely limited in their effectiveness.

But they have to start somewhere and they can read and they do have access to the Internet and they do read this site, which is somewhere, and most likely how Warren got picked up. I had a client once who advertised by sticking up posters around the town that he was organising an illegal "burn out" competition, and he wondered why the police turned up there and weren't out hunting people down!

I have no problem with people doing a little extra with their radios, provided they don't cause problems, heck, I'm interested in how they do it, but for crying out loud, don't advertise illegal activity on the air, or even worse, here in this site or others like it.

Some of the modifications and tricks are no doubt done with good intention and in ignorance of the law, but a lot aren't. They are done, as I used to professionally write, "with malicious aforethought".

There does seem to be a Robin Hood Vs. the Sheriff of Nottingham mentality arising, or having arisen, where the wrong doers are seen as the hero Robin and those who attempt to draw attention to the fact that it maybe awful unlawful to do what is being done are accorded the evil Sheriff of Nottingham status and treated with the same sort of contempt that he was afforded.

I have invested too much time and energy and have too higher a regard for this hobby, and people in it, to have it eroded by people doing the wrong thing. If you are innocently doing the wrong thing, then accept correction, with good grace, and desist, at least in public. If you are deliberately doing the wrong thing, then, don't write about it here, or anywhere else. And probably even more importantly, no much more importantly, if you see someone doing something wrong, please correct them with grace, courtesy and dignity, otherwise flame wars erupt and we all get burnt, even the innocent bystanders. Anyway, that's what I think.

Oh, and a big hello to all the guys at the ACMA.

[chanjyj]

VK4 (VKfour?), I appreciate your long post. At minimum it has given me an insight as to where you come from. I do not debate the merits of your POV, maybe you have misunderstood me.

Regulatory authorities being emasculated to a large degree (and hence limited in their effectiveness) is not an excuse for starting out (what I perceive) small. You have a mission, you do it to the best of your ability and within whatever legal framework you have. Enforcement should not be selective just because you are hampered. While I may not know what is going on within ACMA, this is how I perceive it to be. If I view it this way, I am sure many others will do so too.

I am not sure if you missed out the part where I wrote me being within LE circles before I flew over here for my 2nd Bachelors. I have noticed a trend, which may not be applicable to Australia due to cultural differences. Instead of issuing a fine to the man on the street for a small petty offence, having a little word with him and educating him while going after the "big fish" often has remarkable results. The "small fish" is grateful that you showed discretion.

I don't know how I would feel if I were in Warren's case, having an official letter sent to me. Perhaps a quiet word with the ACMA inspector would have worked wonders. For your illegal "burn out" competition client, well I have no sympathy for him. I hope you can see where I am coming from.

As for optimising the radio for CB frequencies, my opinion is that if the person knows how to program it to begin with, he/she should be proficient enough to know what he/she is doing. Even if an antenna is cut slightly wrong? Let's agree to disagree.

To digress abit, I believe some of the CB users use more than 5W due to antenna selection and placement. Perceived increase in range to them is due to "increased power" where the antenna actually is the critical element. I did abit of testing today to see some "real life figures". Anything I couldn't hit with a 4W commercial portable, I could hit with a 4W AR portable hooked up to a 2.15dBi antenna with RSSI at MAX. From zilch to max.

[vkcpolice]

it is a bit confusing i must admit i just think uniden pricing of there uhf radio are ridicules.